Episode description
From the mid-1860s until 1924, travel in Australia involved trains hauled by steam locomotives, sailing and steam ships, paddle steamers, cable cars in the big cities, bicycles, and later the motor car. Plus, one of the great icons of transport in Australia - the horse-drawn coach services called Cobb & Co.
As the railways grew, and other transport evolved, the legendary coaches and their magnificent horse teams, withdrew to places longing for transport, rather than compete with the new forms of travel. The vast distances of Queensland, and its people, maintained a solid demand for coaching, with routes here peaking at more than 7000km in 1900.
Our podcast today, is a special one – we step beyond the steam locomotive footplate, and the carriage steps, and swing up onto the box seat to share the story of Cobb & Co, and its shared connection with the Queensland Railways.
Hosted by Annette, and our Queensland Rail Historian, Greg Hallam, we are also joined by Curator for Transport, Cultures and Histories, Amy Goldston. Recorded at the Cobb + Co Museum, we talk about the roaring days, and reflect on the last run of a Cobb & Co coach in Australia, from Yuleba, to Surat in August 1924. We also discover Amy's railway heritage.
Here is the
historical image referenced during the episode.
Here is a great link to a series of images on the Cobb & Co services in Queensland.
Discover more about the
Cobb & Co Museum.
If you have any questions about our rail history, please email our Historian, Greg Hallam– he'd love to hear from you! - history@qr.com.au.
Also - if you're enjoying what you're hearing, please leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you, what you love about the podcast, and what you'd like us to feature on a future episode!
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Podcast transcript
Introduction
Annette: Good day, and welcome to another episode of the Queensland Rail History podcast. I'm Annette, and as always, it's great to have you along with us today as we dive back into the Queensland Rail history vaults. We journey a little bit further afield today than the story of Queensland Railways, and instead share the reins with the Cobb & Co Museum in Toowoomba. We talk with Amy Goldston, Curator at Cobb & Co Museum, about the days when the iron horse and the furry variety trotted throughout Queensland, working together to provide a coordinated travel service, connecting communities even back then.
Amy: That was why Cobb & Co was such a lifeline to rural Queenslanders, because that was where you got all your supplies, it's where you got your mail, it was the way that you communicated with the rest of the world. So, when you heard the bugle horn – and that was the announcement that Cobb & Co was arriving in your town – that was really your communication with the rest of the world.
Male: Be that as it may, we, in common with the whole community, hail with pleasure the inauguration of the railway in Queensland.
Female: An old woman in our carriage was very proud of this little bit of railroad.
Introduction at Cobb + Co Museum
Annette: Today we're actually at the Cobb & Co Museum, and we're joined by the curator, Amy. Welcome, Amy.
Amy: Thanks very much for having me.
Annette: All right. And now I better say hello to Greg too, because he's over there, chomping at the bit to actually be heard. Go, Greg.
Greg: Well, this is excellent, because we are at Cobb & Co Museum and chomping at the bit, another excellent pun there. So thank you, Annette. And as I said, today Amy Goldston will be talking to us about her role as a curator, as a fellow person of history, and many shared experiences that we have in our profession and things like that. But today, I think, will be very important, because I'd really like to hear Amy tell the story of Cobb & Co and that wonderful interlinked story between Queensland Railways and Cobb & Co. I think, as we go through our podcast today, for a lot of people out there, I think they'll come to a greater understanding of transport in Queensland just wasn't a one shot thing.
It just wasn't the Queensland Railways; it wasn't this; but there was always this thing about connecting. There was a shared way of travel; the journey was shared in a lot of ways. And I think we're going to have a really good journey on this one today. I just don't think people realise how important it is. And given we have the centenary coming up in August of 2024, of that final rail-coach run from Yuleba to Surat, it'll be a great opportunity. And one thing too, Yuleba Railway Station, it's actually here in Toowoomba. It was transported out to Drayton where the DownsSteam group are today and working on restoring steam locomotives and operating heritage trips from there.
So if people today want to experience even a bit more of that connection between Yuleba, Surat and the final coach run, you go to DownsSteam at Drayton, and guess what, the Yuleba Station is there with that story of Cobb & Co as well.
Annette: Fantastic. We're somewhere different today, recording at Cobb & Co Museum. Amy, would you be able to tell us about the museum? What can we expect to see when we come, and a few other things?
Introduction to Amy Goldston, Curator, Cobb + Co Museum
Amy: Yes, absolutely. We're in a great spot in Toowoomba, right opposite Queens Park. The Museum itself is based around a donation of horse-drawn vehicles, including Cobb & Co coaches. It was a gentleman named Bill Bolton who donated the original collection that started this museum off, and it's grown from there. So we tell that story of Cobb & Co, of the horse-drawn era in Queensland. And then we also tell a range of stories about historic trades, wheelwrighting, blacksmithing, all the different trades that were involved with this era of horse-drawn vehicles and animal-pulled vehicles. And we also tell some really great local First Nations stories here as well. So, it's a great overall experience, but tells that story of Cobb & Co and the horse-drawn era in Queensland.
Annette: Fantastic. All right. You want to take her away, Greg?
Greg: Okay. Well, let's give the reins a shake, or if we're on a steam locomotive, we'll open the regulator now and get things started anyhow. We're talking about the significance of that last run of a Cobb & Co coach in Australia. That was in August of 1924. It was from Yuleba, which is on the Western Line out towards Roma, to Surat, which is in southwestern Queensland as well. We'll talk about that, but in a lot of ways, the significance lies in the fact, although that was the last run for nearly – the 1860s, 1820s – 80, 90 years, that shared history between Queensland Railways and also Cobb & Co as the transport providers and that, it's absolutely remarkable.
Well, I think the fun thing we'll talk about today is although we talk about the world of ticketless travels and tap on, tap off and everything like that, they were doing coordinated ticketing and things like that back in the 1860s. First up, I'll give a bit of background about how Cobb & Co came to be, and how it came to be in Queensland. Well, the Cobb & Co services, they actually commenced operations, was it 1854 in Victoria there, Amy?
Amy: That's correct.
Greg: Thank you very much. I got my first one right for today anyway, Annette, so that's a good start. Although that was 1854 that was during the gold era?
Amy: Yes. It was the Victorian gold rush, which really was the beginning of Cobb & Co.
Greg: Yes, that's right. Amy, can you just give us a little bit of background about how these stagecoaches and that actually – because when we think about it, about 10 years ago we were in the United States in New York, I went to a Wells Fargo bank and of course, when you walk in, they've got this enormous coach there. I looked at it and I said to the people at the bank, I said, “Oh, they just look like a Cobb & Co coach." And they looked back at me and said, “What's a Cobb & Co coach?" And I said, well, the shared history. But can you just give us a little bit of background to start with, about the stagecoaches and things like that and how they came to be here in Australia in the 1850s?
The Cobb & Co company in Australia
Amy: Yes, absolutely. So, the American example is perfect because Cobb & Co was started by four young Americans. They were in their 20s and they'd each worked at one of the coaching companies in America, including Wells Fargo. So they saw an opportunity with the gold rushes in Australia and decided to start their own coaching company. They imported their coaches from the US. So, it was a different design to the European and English coaches, which were on metal springs, which were very rigid and they broke easily and weren't as great for the Australian terrain. Whereas the American stagecoaches, like the ones that Wells Fargo used, had leather suspension, which meant that they could rock and sway with the environment and they didn't break as easily.
So, these Americans, four young Americans, including Freeman Cobb, they imported all of their coaches and started the Cobb & Co coaching line. And it was incredibly, incredibly successful, but they based it on the American style, which was from places like Wells Fargo.
Annette: Now, I want to throw in a really random question.
Greg: There are never random questions with Annette, Amy, beware.
Amy: Go for it.
Annette: So, you said there was four gentlemen who started this business together, and one of them was – last name was Cobb. How did he get the naming rights and not the other three?
Amy: Well, it was actually a different name to begin with. It was the American Telegraph Line of Coaches and Cobb & Co was the colloquial name that it started to become known as. They had Cobb & Co written on the side, and Freeman Cobb was the instigator, I suppose; but it actually did have an official different company name to begin with, but then it just took off as Cobb & Co.
Annette: Australians shortening a name.
Amy: Exactly.
Annette: I know. Come on, we're not known for that at all.
Greg: In some of our previous podcasts, Annette and Amy, we've spoken about those early years in the Queensland Railways, the 1860s and 70s and that. It's all like it was very much the British influence, the railway technology being employed around the world. But we've also touched on the American influence that came in from the 1880s, like engine design, but even the carriage design. So I think it's real interesting, Annette, that even with Cobb & Co with the stagecoaches, and with the railway travel, again, you can see, although, you know, there was that British influence, there's also an American influence as well too. It's like the two blended together to create something that actually became like a bit of a Queensland identity and things like that.
Annette: Now, I'm curious. So we know that Cobb & Co started in Victoria. When did it make its way to Queensland?
Amy: They started expanding up in the 1860s. So 1865, they started announcing that Cobb & Co was going to be starting in Queensland. But it was on New Year's Day, I believe, in 1866 was the first run of a Cobb & Co coach in Queensland.
Annette: So the trains beat the carriages?
Amy: Indeed. Yes.
Annette: Wow! You wouldn't
Amy: Which I think is something a lot of people do not realise.
Annette: Because I would think
Greg: Chalk it up to Queensland Railways, thank you very much. There we go.
Annette: Yes. Yes. Well, it's interesting because a railway, it's so – the logistics behind it, to me, versus having a horse with a carriage. But as we go on and as I've learned a lot more, I realise it's not a horse with a carriage to get these things going.
Amy: No. It's a huge amount of infrastructure as well, just very different to the type that you'd have for the railway. We probably will cover this at some point, but they had changing stations that were, 20 or 25 kilometres apart, and you'd ride on the coach from one station to another and you'd change your set of horses entirely and then have a fresh set and keep going to the next changing station, which would be another 20 kilometres or so away. And that was one of the keys to Cobb & Co's success, is that they were faster and just more efficient than the other companies because they had fresh horses the whole way.
Greg: It's like when the first railways opened in Queensland, there was a description of when the railway line opened through Toowoomba to Murphy's Creek at the bottom of the range, and newspaper journalists actually said that this place, Murphy's Creek, for years to come will be a feeding place for the steam locomotives. And it was talking about the water and the wood. And even when they ran the first trains in Queensland in July of 1865, there was a wonderful thing in the paper that described the engine driver – and the journalist was trying to describe it for people – he's like a jockey with a horse, although with levers and that.
So again, the people were trying to quote who'd never – knew of steam trains and that, of course – but actually the experience of travelling behind one, seeing one in action, they always went back to – going back to the horse and everything that they were all familiar with as well. So there's a lovely correlation, I always find in that era, between the transport with horses and the iron horses, the Americans call it, of course, anyway.
Annette: Yes. Well, I think most people – we talked about it in our previous podcast – that people had never seen a train. Some people had never seen drawings or anything of a train. And then all of a sudden there's a train coming through. So they had to find something to relate it to. All right. Greg, do you want to get us back on track?
Cobb & Co and the Queensland Railways
Greg: Back on track, okay. Oh, well, well, let's get back in the traces anyway. Okay, Amy, I guess one thing that I've always enjoyed reading about, talking about, with the story of Cobb & Co was basically that – I know Annette was talking to me about it, and she said she can't get over how far the distances were, and where they travelled throughout Queensland. But I suppose we could go back to the very beginning here in Queensland, and there was the story, wasn't it, that although Cobb & Co would run between Ipswich and Brisbane and that, but the railways went from Ipswich to Grandchester, and eventually to Toowoomba, of course. But there was a coordinated coach, wasn't there, service almost from the beginnings of the openings of the Queensland Railways. Can you just give us a little – talk about that for us, please, Amy?
Amy: Yes, absolutely. They definitely did have the coach runs from Ipswich to Toowoomba and Brisbane in the early days. But that moved on very quickly when the railways became very well established. And then, I suppose, the symbiotic relationship became that the Cobb & Co coaches would meet the railway at the railheads and they would take the mail from there and travel further west or north, or just further than the railways went. So very early on, it established this joint relationship where they worked really well together.
Greg: And that was the thing, Annette, when we spoke in the past about mail trains carrying the mail and everything like that. Cobb & Co, they had the Royal Mail.
Amy: The Royal Mail contracts.
Greg: Yes, exactly. So the Queensland Railways would carry in, but it'd come to those points where, as Amy said, it was literally jump-off point, but the mail would be transferred to the Cobb & Co, and then it would go to those outlying areas where the Railways couldn't get to or anything like that. So, a coordinated service.
Annette: Yes, it's always nice to have someone there to do the bits that you can't.
Greg: Exactly, yes. The other thing too is, when they opened the first section of railway line from Ipswich through to Bigges Camp, Grandchester and onwards, you could actually get a coordinated ticket that'd get you from Brisbane to Ipswich and then on to a Cobb & Co coach. But you used to commence your journey and come up Brisbane and Bremer Rivers, of course, in a river steamer, a paddle wheeler; and then you go to the steam train or catch the train from Ipswich through to whatever the end of the line was at that stage; and then you get your Cobb & Co coach to take you up to Toowoomba places like that.
So this concept of coordinated travel and interlinked travel, it was there from the beginnings. It's always been something in the background there and it's always been – this idea of being able to pass things on, it's been a very important part of the story of travel in Queensland.
Annette: So we know that Cobb & Co ended up going all the way from Brisbane, and up to Cairns, and it would take over from when our railway wasn't there and go from that. Do we know how long it would generally take? We have the coordinated trip; you'd start in Brisbane. How long did it take a person to get to Cairns? It's a tough one, I know.
Greg: Oh, blimey. Okay. Brisbane to Cairns is – well, the centenary of that being a complete railway route, of course, is December of 1924. So the centenary of that, even in the 1930s, it was a 53-hour train trip to go through continually from Brisbane through to Cairns and that. But in that earlier era, as I think it was explained about previously, Annette, to get up to Brisbane to Cairns, you had only certain sections you could travel by train because you used to go steamship up and down the coast. And then, of course, those intervening sections where the train wasn't to go, and you couldn't get the boat, you'd get the coach.
Amy: I think on coach you could generally get about 80 kilometres or so a day, depending on the weather as well. Yes, probably about 80 kilometres might be a day's worth of travel.
Annette: Wow! So Cairns is what, 950 kilometres, I believe.
Greg: 1,743 kilometres.
Annette: There you go. There you go. A long, long way.
So, right off the bat Cobb & Co had a working relationship with the Railways. You'd jump on your Cobb & Co coach in Brisbane, they would get you to Ipswich. From Ipswich to Grandchester we're going on our rail trip. And then did Cobb & Co take over at the other end?
What was a journey like for a passenger traveling with Cobb & Co
Amy: Yes. They would take you further out west, as it was, from Toowoomba or from Ipswich, depending on which line you were going on. But yes, Cobb & Co would be the next stop on your journey.
Annette: And can you tell me actually something about their carriages? How many passengers would they hold? Or how much mail could they carry, or freight, or whatever they're taking?
Amy: There were different sizes of carriages. So some might be an eight, some might be a 14-passenger coach.
Annette: A 14-passenger coach?
Amy: Yes. If you see the photos, you can see people sitting on the roof; they're on the back; they're crammed inside; there's someone up next to the driver on the front. So if you had a full passenger load, you could really stack people on quite a lot. The health and safety wasn't quite up to scratch back then, so you could really just jump on wherever you could fit. But the main way that Cobb & Co made their money was from the mail. So that's the other impressive photo that you'll see, is just bags and cases and just everything stacked on top to fit as much mail and packages and goods on there as possible, because the Royal Mail contract was where Cobb & Co made their money.
Annette: Okay. So, if we're talking about a standard trip, and we know that the train comes in every so on and passes the mail over to Cobb & Co, how often were they carrying the mail? Once a week, once a month?
Amy: It depended on which route you were on. Some towns could expect mail twice a week; some, it would be once a week. But pretty early on, they had very regular runs. It didn't tend to be once a month; it tended to be once a week, even to a lot of remote areas.
Annette: That's fantastic. And as a person who likes to have her conveniences, did they also do supplies or was it purely mail and passenger only?
Amy: It was definitely supplies as well. That was why Cobb & Co was such a lifeline to rural Queenslanders, if we're going to talk about Queensland, because that was where you got all your supplies; it's where you got your mail; it was the way that you communicated with the rest of the world. So, when you heard the bugle horn – and that was the announcement that Cobb & Co was arriving in your town – that was really your communication with the rest of the world.
Annette: I'm sorry, now I've got bugle in my head. I can just imagine –
Greg: I was waiting for Annette to say that, I could see the eyes light up.
Annette: I could just imagine – I'm hoping that the drivers were actually trained how to blow that, because if you do it wrong, it is a horrible noise.
Amy: Great question. I've always, I suppose romantically, thought it would just be this very nice, crisp sound, but I don't know if they would have had bugle training as a Cobb & Co coach driver. It's a great question.
Annette: Because the bugle horn, you think, yes, my coach is coming. But then when you got a new driver and he doesn't know what he's doing, that would be a horrendous noise.
Greg: Well, I suppose you'd go back – you had the bugle horn, and then, of course, you also had the whistle crow from the steam locomotives as well. The old whistle crows had their own separate codes for different things in the railways and things like that. There's a wonderful mental picture, because when you look at the photographs there – and I know, Amy, you've probably seen them too – but when you see the Cobb & Co coach outside the railway station and then you see the train there and the people, it's a pity that soundscapes weren't available then, although I'm sure in this day and age, people like our producers and that would create something like that.
But I've got this wonderful mental picture – you've got the bugle calls and the neighing of the horses, and people, the whistles of the steam locomotives and everything like that. It would be such an evocative soundscape, so indicative of that era, the 19th and early 20th century.
Amy: Absolutely.
The Cobb & Co change stations
Annette: I'm interested, as we know that the – you were mentioning earlier – that the horses only went for 20 to 25 kilometres. Where did they swap? How did they swap? Was there special stations, or was there something set up for them?
Amy: Yes. There were changing stations along the way. So, when the coach came up to the changing station, there would be a groom waiting, and that groom would change out the horses very quickly, and then the Cobb & Co coach would keep going. And then the groom and the family who ran the changing station would look after the horses. So horses usually only sort of stayed in small regions. They'd get to know the route really, really well. So they were very competent on the pathways that they would actually travel. But yes, they would change every 20, 25 kilometres or so, but they'd have dedicated changing stations. And some of them would be where you'd stop to have lunch and have some meals and things as well. And that was how families gained a little bit of extra income as well.
Annette: Okay. So it would tend to be on a private property they would come through. And was it a purpose built building or was it just using the family's barn?
Amy: Usually they were built for Cobb & Co, because you wanted it to be as quick as possible. Cobb & Co was really known for their reliability and speed. So you'd want the actual changing post, I suppose, to be out on the road so that you could change as quickly as possible and keep going.
Annette: Okay.
Greg: I have a conflict of interest here, Annette, and you too, Amy. My great grandparents ran a Cobb & Co change station on the Boyne River out the back from Gladstone.
Amy: Oh, great.
Greg: So there we go, conflict of interest there, Annette.
Annette: Oh, so you're a railway and a Cobb & Co man.
Greg: I like to think iron horse and the other sort of horse. How's that, Annette?
Annette: Let's go back. You said that the people who ran the stations tended to earn a little bit of extra money. Was it financially viable that way?
Amy: It wasn't all of them. Some would just change over the horses and you'd just keep going. But then there would be other locations along the way that you might stop and have food for the passengers because, if some of these trips took days, then you would be staying the night at some of these places as well. So, yes, it depended on the changing station that you were at. But having that extra income from being able to produce food and sell that to the passengers was definitely a viable way to get a little bit of extra income.
Annette: I have this very romantic picture in my head of this little lady in the kitchen making some nice fluffy scones, or some nice casserole or something to serve to the passengers coming to her house for the evening.
Amy: I think it really depended on where you were travelling. There are some very interesting stories of the types of meals that you might get, depending on where you were. It also depended if it was drought and what was available. So, I do believe some of the places would serve parrot and things like that, if they were really – didn't have a lot going at the time. And there are some –
Greg: Rosella Jam. [laughs] Sorry. Okay, I'm going home.
Amy: So, yes, I think it really depended on where you were and what was available at the time. But some of the journals from people travelling on Cobb & Co coaches, sometimes there was really, really great reviews. And other times it was decidedly average.
Greg: It's like the railway refreshment rooms we've spoken about before.
Annette: That's what's going through my head too. I can see some of the refreshment rooms. We've talked about the railway refreshment rooms, and some of them were purpose-built buildings where it was all spick and speck and beautifully clean. And then you go to the other end of the scale, where it was literally hessian bags around a structure, and you had your meal in there super quick because you just wanted to leave. So, yes, I can see that now with the Cobb & Co as well.
Greg: That's when the railway line opened between Normanton and Croydon, Amy, there was that famous story that when it finally opened, beginning in the 1890s. And they said the coach journey between Croydon and Normanton, they said when they had to overnight somewhere, all these strange creatures would be invading the room, trying to eat you or get you. And they said the food, they said in some cases the food, it was best that there was no actual light in the room so that you could actually see what you were eating or anything like that. The fare has changed, somewhat better here today.
And the good news is, for those listening today, Cobb & Co Museum in Toowoomba has an excellent place to eat. So, there is nothing to concern yourselves about past history meal traditions here at Cobb & Co Museum anyway.
Amy: Very true.
Annettte: No parrot on the menu today.
Amy: No, not quite.
How expensive were the fares to travel with Cobb & Co?
Annette: So, we know that people are getting boarded and they're getting fed. What kind of expense was it to take these trips?
Amy: I guess the rule of thumb I've been told was that it was about a week's wage for a tradesman or something like that nowadays. So, it could be 12 or 13 hundred dollars. So, yes, very, very expensive.
Annette: And how far would that get them? Was that a day trip or was that a few day trips?
Amy: I believe that was about a day trip. It was very, very expensive. So, yes, Cobb & Co coaches, it was a very expensive way to travel. So, a lot of people did walk from place to place, if you were travelling short enough distances, because it wasn't a cheap way to travel.
Annette: I was going to say, a week's wage is for a day's travel. Wow, that is substantial.
Greg: So, you can imagine, Annette, when the railways came, carrying these large volumes of people and passengers, and yet the fares were subsidised, admittedly, so they were so much more reduced. And that was, again, the thing with the travel. So, in the era of stagecoaches and that limited travel, your travel options were literally limited, and rolling your swag and things like walking or horse, if you're lucky to have a horse. The 1890s, late 1890s, actually, the other great travel innovation was the bicycle. So many people who worked in the bush were able to get around on bicycles and things like that. That was – I don't think people realise, with the invention of the bicycle and pneumatic tyres eventually, just how much that also opened up people beyond the railheads and things like that as well too, for the coaches.
Amy: Absolutely, because if you wanted to have your own horse-drawn vehicle, you had to be able to look after the horse. It's not something you can just, like a car, go and park in your garage. You have to be able to feed it and water it. And even if you can afford the vehicle that goes along with it, the expense of having a horse, you have to keep that up as well. So as Greg said, bicycles and walking were a really big part of how people got around as well.
Annette: Okay. So to me, I'm seeing a bicycle like I ride today. But as we came in, there was penny farthings. Is that the kind of bicycles we're talking about now?
Amy: I wouldn't think so, for that type of travel.
Greg: No.
Amy: I think it would be a more rudimentary version of what we have now.
Greg: One-speed bikes and things like that was pretty much the go for that era anyway, Annette. I think the other thing too is the railway, the amount of preparation and times. But you think about railway again, you could roll up to – well, you walk to a station, get a coach at the station, you pay your ticket, you get on a train. Now, the locomotive and everything's been prepared for you hours in advance. You know exactly when the train's going to run. The timetable is a timetable. And you know that you turn up at the station a certain time, the train will leave and depart and things like that. This was all revolutionary stuff for people. And the fact that Cobb & Co also, they had timetables as well.
So for people, this entire concept of – the idea of time – I have to be here at a certain time, and I know that my train will get me to this point. Then when I leave, I know that it will be a Cobb & Co coach to take me on to the next journey. For a lot of people in that part of Queensland, 19th and early 20th century, that was again revelatory, because it wasn't, “Oh, it's going to take me –" literally, the 1860s when the wool clips used to come down on wagons and that, it could be six weeks from the Darling Downs into the west, down to the Maranoa. Next thing, Cobb & Co appeared. Timetable, change stations, we can get you there in a certain time.
Then the railway appears as well too. And again, that entire concept of travelling and time just coalesces all the time. It shrinks and it shrinks and it shrinks. It wasn't really until motor vehicles, but especially airliners and things like that, as I guess you're saying, the next big collapsing of how long it does take to get somewhere. It's all revolutionary stuff that we're looking at here for people who travel, and the time taken and things like that, Annette. It's a constant collapsing of how long it will take.
Annette: Now, I have another question for you, Amy. It's a little bit off topic; we're moving over again.
Greg: Get ready. It's an Annette question.
Annette: No, it's rather safe, this one. I'm just interested – so, we know that Cobb & Co had dedicated routes. Say I wanted to be dropped at my station instead of your stop, am I able to pay you to get to my station, or is it literally you go to your stop, that's it, and I have to make my way on foot or however else I can.
Amy: Yes, they had very specific routes, so they weren't going to be deviating necessarily for an individual passenger. Because as Greg mentioned, they had really strict timetables. And the way they made their money, most of their money, was the Royal Mail. So the mail contracts was the part of the job that took precedence over everything else. So as a passenger, it's like going on an air flight or a railway journey now, you book your ticket, you go from A to B, and then you have to find your way to the next location.
Annette: And hope somebody nice with a horse comes and picks me up.
Amy: You're not walking?
Annette: Oh well, if we're talking 80 kilometres, no.
Greg: But Annette apparently is very good at rolling your swag and everything like that anyway. So there you go.
Annette: Yes, I love my swag. I am desperate to go camping again in my swag.
Greg: Well, the good news is, there are plenty of beautiful places up around this part of the world this time of year, as you know, Annette.
Annette: Yes, yes. Completely off subject. And I'm sorry, you'll have to edit it. But if you've ever slept in a swag, it is so dark and it is so warm. It is just – you can forget that the world's outside. It is like another little cosy world away. So, yes, it was lovely. I never sleep in at home, and I slept in till 7:30.
Amy: Wow! I didn't realise swags were that comfortable. I assumed they were quite rustic.
Annette: Then you've got the wrong one. [laughter]
Amy: To be honest, I've never been into camping. So, I'm probably the wrong person to talk to.
Greg: Amy, the glamp.
The Cobb & Co journey continues into the twentieth century
Amy: The journey continued on a Cobb & Co coach from Grandchester to Toowoomba. And by 1900, the company operated 39 routes in Queensland, which covered 7,750 kilometres, harnessed 9,000 horses, and travelled over 31,000 kilometres every week. So, it was a huge network that they had.
Annette: 9,000 horses. That is a lot of horses to try and feed.
Amy: It is. It is. And again, it's across all of Queensland. So, that spreads far and wide. And when you think about how many changing stations they'd have at those 20-kilometre intervals, you just imagine how many horses, and often a team of seven horses per coach. And that changed. It might be a five-horse team or a seven-horse team, but it's a lot of horses across Queensland.
Annette: That is a lot of horses to pull a coach. Were they super heavy coaches?
Amy: They were quite heavy when you think about how much they were carrying. So the coaches themselves are fairly solid. But then you think about the fact that they're carrying mail, they're carrying passengers and they're carrying goods. They were incredibly heavy. So, again, one of the advantages to having those changing stations, because you could just have fresh horses that were keeping a great pace the whole time.
Greg: I had a question come in last week: how many steam locomotives were actually operated on the Queensland Railways from 1865 to 1969? Last engine was 1958. How many? 9,000 horses we're talking about. 1,350 steam locomotives ever in the history of the Queensland Railways. So there's a lot more of the Cobb & Co horses than the iron horses that operated in Queensland. There you go.
Annette: Yes, well, to be fair, we didn't need seven locos to pull the carriages.
Greg: I don't know. I've had some real interesting trips over the years, Annette, anyway. So there we go.
Amy: But I will just also add there that it was really dependent also on drought and things like that. So Cobb & Co really went through some rough stages if it was a drought year because they still had to feed the horses. So they had to just buy all the feed rather than letting them just graze. So it could be incredibly expensive. And Cobb & Co suffered a lot of losses when there was drought time as well. So very expensive to keep all those horses going.
Annette: I wonder if the people who originally set up Cobb & Co had ever experienced an Australian drought, to understand, before moving into Queensland.
Amy: They had that background being in the United States. So a lot of the terrain was actually quite similar in certain areas, with that expansion of – the great expansion of the American West. So I'm sure they would have experienced drought. But I don't know, probably in Queensland we didn't have the same infrastructure that America had at that point. So getting things from one place to another would have been very expensive. So that all really does add up.
Annette: Well, even to have the feed for the horses, they would have had to carry that with them, which means they could carry less mail or less passengers or less goods with them. So it even cost them money that way.
Amy: Yes, exactly. So everything really did add up quite a lot.
Annette: Sorry, in my head, originally you talked about these four people who set it up. Four men in their 20s set this up.
Amy: Yes.
Annette: And if I think about people today in their 20s starting up a business like this, it just – it boggles the mind.
Amy: Not all of them stayed in Australia for very long. They set up the company and sold it fairly quickly, within a few years. And then Cobb & Co went under different management and it changed hands and has a complicated history in that little middle section, until a gentleman, particularly in Queensland, a gentleman named James Rutherford took over, and he consolidated back again. But yes, the original four Americans weren't the operators of Cobb & Co for very long.
Annette: Okay.
Amy: Sold it for a great profit though.
Annette: Profit and run. Profit and run. All good, all good.
Amy: Although they did try to set it up in other countries too. So, New Zealand has Cobb & Co, South Africa briefly had Cobb & Co, and Japan also had Cobb & Co very briefly. A little interesting fact that a lot of people don't know.
Annette: Did they call it Cobb & Co in those countries?
Amy: Yes. And in New Zealand, there's actually a Cobb & Co chain of restaurants still.
Annette: Oh, wow! So the nickname that us Aussies gave it has then spread around the world. I had no idea that Cobb & Co was outside of Australia.
Amy: Yes. That's one of the cool things about the final run of Cobb & Co as well; it's the final run of a Cobb & Co coach in the world, because it did actually expand to other countries.
Annette: So we lasted longer than every other country as well?
Amy: Yes. And Queensland was the last. And again, just because it was going out to these really remote rural areas.
Greg: But one thing, Amy, coming from the railway background – and Amy, of course, as you know, Annette, has worked previously with Queensland Museum Rail Workshops at Ipswich – one thing that's always interested me is the fact, people know about Queensland Railways having workshops, places like Ipswich and Townsville and Rockhampton and many other places, but where did the stagecoaches come from? Were they locally or were they imported or things like that? I imagine there's a great story behind that, like homegrown business as well too, Amy.
Amy: Yes, absolutely. So originally they were imported from United States, but very quickly they started manufacturing in Australia, so they'd have Cobb & Co factories. There's one in Bathurst and different locations, but the final Cobb & Co factory was in Charleville. That was where a lot of coaches and vehicles and other harnesses and things came from. The Charleville factory was a huge centre for Cobb & Co.
Annette: So what happened to that when Cobb & Co closed down? Did it start producing things for horses in general or did it close down?
Amy: They did diversify a little bit; they did start working on motor vehicles and things like that, but it didn't last very long after Cobb & Co. So the last coach run of Cobb & Co was in 1924, but the company as a whole, even though they tried to move into motor vehicles and trucks and cars, they did close down entirely in 1929. So the Charleville factory went with that.
Greg: I think the one thing is –it was interesting with the Queensland Railways too, because they worked hard to keep Cobb & Co running as well too, because they didn't see them as competition; they saw them as an extension of what they were trying to do. And I think that's the other thing why it lasted so long here. It wasn't like – it wasn't competition. It was that idea of connecting, connecting Queensland. Where have we heard this before?
Annette: Connecting communities the whole way.
Greg: Thank you very much, Annette. I think it was interesting. Again, they didn't try and put them out of business, and Cobb & Co was smart enough to see the opportunities. All right, we don't go in competition yet; there's this gap that literally needs to be filled. This is the end of the line here; this is the buffer stops, and beyond this, well, the railway will get there. But building the railways takes a very long time, and disrupting things along the way, it takes a long time to build a railway. And yet you had that – it was a fleet of foot thing – Cobb & Co could get in there; they saw the need and they were able to capitalise on it.
I've always been amazed, and I think it was a real testament to this concept of business, but also the service they could provide. I always thought that was brilliant of them. Okay, we can't compete; we'll value add – is that the word that you use, Annette?
Annette: Yes, if you want to talk in corporate jargon, yes, value add.
Greg: Thank you so much for that.
Annette: I'm looking at it, and we've called our network the patchwork network for a very long time. So we could almost look at it as you guys are the connecting string, the cotton that makes it match.
Amy: Absolutely.
Greg: I think that's a really good analogy, because you think about transport, coastal wise, steamships and that, they had it sewed up for decades; and that was a luxurious way to travel along the coast. But you go inland, okay, the railways can only get you so far; and from that point on, it's a thousand miles. “Tonight we'll see the lights of Cobb & Co" sort of thing – apologies to Henry Lawson there, I know [unclear] 00:38:50, terribly sorry.
Annette: Do we know how expensive the steamships were?
Greg: Well, again, it was – first-class travel was very much Titanic – Annette would have been completely at home. It had three forms of travel, first class, second class and then, your third class and that. But the railways, again, it was a very expensive form of travel for obvious reasons. If you're going up the Queensland coast and there are certain forms – basically, there's no two ways about it – comfort and Annette would go together hand in hand very strongly. The other thing, too, is for those long distances, up into the early 20th century, travelling by ship was more preferable than an overnight on a train. Even a sleeping train or something like that, because it was a pretty rough journey, even by train and everything like that, Annette. But Cobb & Co never had sleeping accommodation on horses. No horse travel.
Amy: No. But apparently the travel was a bit rough though, too. Because they were on leather suspension, it really rocked and swayed, so people likened it to sea sickness. So I wouldn't have done very well on a Cobb & Co coach.
Annette: No. And I would definitely want an overnight stop.
Amy, we've actually brought along an old picture we have today of what I'm thinking a station or a stop or a changeover station may have looked like. Do you want to describe it quickly and tell me if this is historically accurate?
Greg: One thing, too, there's a bicycle in that photograph, you can see straightaway, Annette.
Annette: Oh, yes. Like a hardtail bike that I have at home today.
A journey from Cloncurry to Richmond – and a photograph discussion
Amy: So, the photo that we have here looks to be in Cloncurry to Richmond.
Greg: Yes, that's right.
Amy: So it's a photo of a trip from Cloncurry to Richmond. There's a small wooden house, it looks like, but it would be one of the changing stations, or potentially a Cobb & Co ticket office as well. It could be something like that if it was in town. There's the Cobb & Co coach out the front. It looks like it might be a five-horse team. And you've got the coach driver, someone in the box seat, which is the seat next to the driver – that's where we get that phrase, being the box seat, the best in the house – is next to the coach driver. And someone sitting on top as well. The coach appears to have some mail and some luggage on top, and everyone just waiting out the front of the building as well. So, potentially that would be a changing station as well, or a ticket office and there might be stables at the back.
Greg: The other thing there too, Annette and Amy, have a look, you can see a telegraph pole there as well too. So there could have been a post office or something like that as well. So you've got the transport thing again there, Annette; you've got telegraph coming in; you've got the Cobb & Co with the Royal Mail and that. I wonder if the lady there with the bicycle, she might have been delivering telegrams around the town or something like that as well too. So it's an entire communications story that you're looking at there as well.
So, Cloncurry to Richmond, the railway line got out to Cloncurry about – what was it, 1908 or thereabouts. It got to Richmond early 20th century. So I think we can peg that photograph probably around –yes probably around 1910, give or take there, Amy. Lovely photograph, I love that one.
Annette: Busy time for Cobb & Co and the railways.
Greg: Certainly was there Annette, yes.
The final years of Cobb & Co in Queensland 1910 - 24
Annette: We talked about times changing for the railway, how we've grown and we've joined and we've matured along the way. We just looked at a photo from 1910. Let's talk about from 1910 to 1924. There would have been remarkable changes through that period for Cobb & Co.
Greg: The world is changing around Cobb & Co, so how's Cobb & Co changing to the world?
Amy: Yes, definitely. That period in history, there was a lot changing. There was a lot changing in technology. World War I was about to begin as well, so there's a lot happening in the world. Cobb & Co still definitely played a role in that period. They were still the only service that could get to these more remote areas of Queensland, just because motor vehicles were definitely becoming more prevalent, but didn't have the, I suppose, reliability going further out west with some of the tracks that they had to cover, but also just the infrastructure. When you think about if they needed to be repaired, getting petrol and all those sort of services out to these more remote regions, that took longer, it took infrastructure.
So Cobb & Co did exist for a long time in those areas, servicing those regions before motor vehicles could take hold. Cobb & Co also did invest in some cars and some trucks and started running those services as well. Yes, they did try to adapt with the times, but by the time 1924 came around, that was the last coach; and by the time 1929 came around, they just weren't able to adapt quickly enough.
Annette: I find it really interesting to know that the last coach ran in 1924, and the last car ran in 1929, but Cobb & Co is still a household name around Australia. How has that happened?
Amy: I think there was almost – even when the last coach ran, it seemed like there was almost an instant nostalgia to it, because I think a lot of people were probably maybe even surprised at the time that there were still coaches running in 1924. Because you have to think about the fact that Qantas was already – had already started in 1924. So there was already airmail; cars were on the roads. It probably seemed quite quaint even when Cobb & Co ran its last coach in Queensland. Victoria and New South Wales hadn't been running coaches for a very long time. And I think there is a romanticism about Cobb & Co.
That whole stagecoach era, I think people did just find something romantic about it. And even when the last coach was running, people were coming out and going on little rides on it. So people actually have photos of that last run of Cobb & Co, because there was a lot of excitement about the fact that this was the end of an era. But I think people were nostalgic about it even at the time.
What happened to the last Cobb & Co cach?
Annette: So, what happened to the last coach then? If people were so nostalgic at the time, surely it didn't just fade off into history in someone's barn somewhere.
Amy: That's a really interesting question because the coach that we have in our gallery here was sold to the Commonwealth Government as the last coach. So, that actually belongs to the National Museum of Australia, and it's loaned to us here. It was definitely one of the last coaches, but if you actually look at photos of the day, it doesn't look like the same one. So it's a bit of an interesting story. It was sold to the Government as the last coach, but it's too big. It doesn't match the photograph. So we know that this coach ran in that last year between Yuleba and Surat; we know that it was on that coach run. It may have been used in the last week, but it probably isn't actually the last coach. So we don't actually know what happened to that last coach.
Greg: Annette, it's like that famous story we talked about a while ago, with the 1936 – the first steam train that ran in Queensland, and it's got the A10 number three. And it's got those two little four-wheel carriages and the people standing around looking more like Gone With The Wind than actually Queensland in the 1860s and things like that. And yet, it was touted for many years, first train that ran in Queensland. And guess what? It ain't the first train that ran in Queensland. But marketing and publicity are very powerful tools, as we know, in Queensland Rail and obviously Queensland Museum as well there, Amy.
Amy: I think people in transport are really obsessed with the first and last of things though, too. Everyone wants to have the first vehicle and the last vehicle, and have that tracked. But when you look at the photos, the one that we have is definitely one of the last, definitely one of the last couple, but not the last.
Annette: So, literally, there could be a barn somewhere with the last Cobb & Co coach hiding away.
Amy: Potentially. I think a lot of the vehicles after the end of the coaching era were sold to former drivers. They were sold off and then used in different ways. So they might have continued to be used as coaches in these rural areas. Some of them were converted into drovers' wagons and used for droving; they'd cut the roof off and transform them. So there were lots of different ways that these vehicles were used afterwards. So, yes, the last coach could be a transformed drovers' wagon sitting somewhere out in Windorah or somewhere like that. You never know where they end up.
Annette: Yes. I tend to have a very romantic view that it's hiding under a cloth in the back of someone's barn.
Amy: Absolutely could be.
The last journey for Cobb & Co
Annette: And the last driver who actually did the last trip, he got to the end of the line, sent everybody off, and then he just kept on going. All right. Well, I'm interested to hear about the last journey. Can you tell me some of the facts we do know?
Amy: Yes, absolutely. The last journey was on service number 177. This is one of Cobb & Co's most famous routes, partially because it was the last one, but it was a really important route in Cobb & Co's history as well; that was from Yuleba to Surat. It was a total of 203 kilometres for that whole journey from Yuleba, Surat, and on to St George. And there were changing stations, as we said, every 25 kilometres or so. And I think, yes, it was a really important route, but it was also just really celebrated at the end. It was really important to the people out in Surat and Yuleba.
The Cobb & Co ticket office out there was the last one that was operational, and it kept on operating for a while after the end of Cobb & Co as well. There was a gentleman out there who continued to run it afterwards, and it became, I think, a general store, post office. But it's still – if you go out there now, you can still actually see it has Cobb & Co lettering and everything still out there, so it's a great thing to visit.
Annette: I was trying to think, why would you run a ticket office after the service is closed? But if he's transformed it into a general store and a little post office and things like that, it makes sense.
Amy: And again, a lot of those places would have doubled as multiple things in small towns. This was in Surat, so, it's a fair distance away. So they would have had a few different operations going at the one location. But, yes, you can still go out and visit it now. It's very fun to go see it.
Greg: It's like the railway stations, Annette, we've spoken about it in the past. They were railway stations, but they were also post offices. And there were also things for the old State Government Insurance Office and banking and everything like that. So, again, when you brought the mail into town, you think of everything else that had to go with it; they'd have to have some banking operation for cheques and things like that. So, it was – the Cobb & Co thing was, again, the transport thing, it brings all those things in; but then what else hangs off it? Those wonderful, incredible hubs. It's like the railway station masters and people like that, they weren't there just to do bookings and things like that; they had to do so many other jobs as well, too.
Annette: Yes. Some of them were even customs officers between Queensland and New South Wales. So they really wore multiple hats at every stage. And I can see your Cobb & Co guys doing the same thing.
Amy: Absolutely.
Greg: Amy, at one stage – just to backtrack on the other side of the board – Cobb & Co had a crack at building railways as well, too, didn't they, in northern New South Wales on the line up to Tenterfield, or something like that? Is that true?
Amy: Yes. They had a few different ventures, I suppose you could say, and particularly under James Rutherford. He was the Managing Director and was really the one who drove Cobb & Co in Queensland. He was a really amazing guy, but they did have a lot of other ventures, and railway was one of them. Not particularly successful, but, yes, they tried a few different things and owned a lot of property and raised their own horses, and had the factory in Charleville which manufactured as well. So there was a lot of different things that Cobb & Co tried over the years as well.
Annette: It sounds like a major employer of the time.
Amy:Yes, definitely, it was.
Amy Goldston and her railway family heritage
Annette: Amy, I am interested, you work for Queensland Museums, but you have any family history with Queensland Rail?
Amy: Yes. Yes, I do. I was chatting to Greg –
Greg: Come on, Amy. Railway aristocracy we have in our presence today, Annette.
Annette: Ooh!
Greg: Didn't you see me genuflect when I came into Cobb & Co Museum today?
Amy: Yes. So my grandfather was the Commissioner for Railways, Percy James Goldston, but PJ or Jim Goldston, I think most people would have known him by.
Annette: So tell us more. How long was he with the railways? Do you know these details, or am I putting you on the spot?
Amy: No, no. He worked his whole career for the railways. So he started off working at a station, I believe, and then became a fitter and turner. Then he did night school and became an engineer, and then worked as an engineer for the railways, mostly in Rockhampton, but he went all over Queensland, Brisbane, Toowoomba for a couple of years. My dad remembers living in Toowoomba for a couple of years when he was quite little. So, worked his way up through the railway, and I believe was the first engineer to become the Commissioner for Railways as well.
Annette: Wow! So he literally started in a station, went from a station to the very, very top role with Queensland Rail.
Amy: Yes.
Annette: Wow, that's a feat.
Amy: Yes. One of those very cool stories, one that we're definitely very proud of in the family. But yes, very cool. He had his whole career for Queensland Rail.
Greg: He was also very big in the late 1970s and the 1980s, overseeing a lot of the electrification of Queensland. It was an enormous task and he bore a lot of responsibility for that as well too. I'm sorry, Amy, I must admit here, I know quite a lot of people in the Queensland Railways who knew PJ, PJ Goldstone; always well respected person he was.
Amy: That's nice to hear.
Greg: Very, very much so. There's one story actually – I picked it up years and years ago – but when he was in Rockhampton, and from your days at the Workshops Rail Museum, which we need to talk a little bit still about, Annette – but when he was in Rockhampton, the Beyer Garratt steam locomotives that were up there – there were 30 of those imported to Queensland in the early 1950s – 10 were built in Manchester and then 20 in France – and the engines that were built in Manchester, they weren't as good as the French build. But I do know that PJ Goldston, when he was up in Rockhampton, actually worked on those locomotives.
I think he wrote a paper about it or something like that in later years and that. But he made them actually – he improved those locomotives. It was like a project of his that he did in the latter 1950s(?) and that. I remember reading about that years ago. So he was very much a hands on person and everything like that. And my understanding, too, he always had a bit of an affection for steam as well, too.
Amy: I can imagine that. I think that's really interesting about the Beyer Garratt though, because that's one of the great objects that's at the Queensland Museum Rail Workshops now. So it's still a Queensland Rail Beyer Garratt, but it's sitting there at the Queensland Museum Rail Workshops. So it's a very cool, very cool locomotive, the Beyer Garratt; I didn't know that he had a passion for those.
Greg: Oh yes, he was very big across the Beyer Garratts and things like that as well, too. So next time you're down at Ipswich, you can give 1009 a pat and go past and think of your grandfather, I guess anyway.
Annette: It must be nice to have so many relics around that remind you of family history.
Amy: Yes, absolutely. There's a plaque in there that's to do with the electrification at the railway workshops and just different things that definitely do remind me of him, which is really nice. I worked there for quite a number of years, so it was always really nice to have those reminders around.
Annette: Now, as someone who has family who's been in the railway – and I have to listen to endless tales of railway stories – did you have to endure the same?
Amy: Not really, actually. I didn't have that experience as much, which is a real shame, because he'd retired by the time I was born. So my main memories are backyard cricket and all those things, as a kid. A lot of the stories that I had from him were more from my uncles and things like that, of their childhood experiences with the railways. I know my father was the youngest of five boys; there's a 14-year age gap between the five brothers, and my dad was the youngest, and I'm the youngest in our family. So yes, the stories that we'd hear is he, he was able to go on the Governor's carriage and things like that on trips down to university and things, because he'd be going with his dad on a trip and they'd get to travel in this amazing carriage.
Annette: And the Governor's carriages were pretty special.
Amy: Yes, very, very cool. So it's those stories that you hear more often. Some of the ones that were great too were, my grandfather, I believe at one point worked on the locomotives that derailed, as an engineer. And that was one of his jobs as an engineer, was getting them back –was to figure out how to get them back on track. So, hearing some of those stories, particularly from my uncle, who was an engineer as well, was really interesting.
Annette: And that's why you have a friendship with Greg, because he will tell you all the stories about your grandfather. Probably some you don't want to know too.
Greg: As I said, Anette, railway aristocracy here. We have railway aristocracy with us.
Amy: It would be lovely to hear some of those stories because, again, I was quite young – I think he passed away when I was 17 – and didn't get to have as many of those conversations as I would have liked. So, always happy to hear more.
Annette: Yes, definitely. You're at the Cobb & Co Museum now. Where did your career start, and how did you get here?
Amy Goldton's career
Amy: It is an interesting one, because it's sort of accidentally on purpose. I started working at the Queensland Museum Rail Workshops as a university student. It was my university holiday job, and I ended up just falling in love with it. And I always loved history. I was going to university and doing anthropology and archaeology, and I did a lot of history subjects as well.
Annette: That's a bit of a change, archaeology to this?
Amy: Yes. Archaeology and anthropology, they do lead to museums on quite a number of occasions. There's a lot of people that I work with who have an archaeology, anthropology background. So it's quite interesting how often that does actually lead into the museum world. So, working even just in a part-time job, I just fell in love with working at a museum. I loved the railway history and ended up doing my postgraduate studies in museum studies so that I could actually dedicate my career to working in a museum. So I started off working in the collection at the Railway Workshop; I was an Assistant Collection Manager, looking after the collection. That involves cataloguing, cleaning, doing all the research and getting all the collection objects online, things like that.
Then I left for a little while and worked at the Museum of Land Mapping and Surveying; I did some research there. That's a small museum. And then the opportunity came around to apply for a job as Curator here at Queensland Museum Cobb & Co, and I leapt at the opportunity, and was very pleasantly shocked and surprised when I got the job.
Annette: So, how's it been since you've got here? What does being a curator involve?
Amy: It's been very busy. It's a huge year for us, because it is the centenary of the last run of a Cobb & Co coach, so a lot of the work that we've been doing this year is around refreshing one of the exhibition galleries. We're rewriting, researching, and getting ready to refurbish one of the exhibition galleries, so that's a huge part of what my job has been this year. But we are the ones who accept objects into the museum collection. So we've got to do research every time someone wants to donate something. We have to research every object and see if it's something that's appropriate to the museum collection. We will do the research; we create the exhibitions and also just engage with the public as well and answer questions and try to help people with research and things like that.
Annette: Okay. Because I know Greg gets a lot of enquiries from the public about things to do with their family, about the trains, about, well, anything you can imagine railways. Do you get random, off the street questions like that every day too?
Amy: Yes, very much so. Lots of emails, lots of phone calls.
Greg: Oh, don't we know it, Amy, don't we know it.
Amy: Lots of people just turning up to the front door and wanting to know information. And it's a variety of things. Sometimes their family owned a changing station, so they want to know more about that. People have it in their family history that they had a Cobb & Co coach driver in the family, so they want to know more information about that. There's a huge range of things. We have university students wanting to do research as well. So yes, a huge amount of interest still in the Cobb & Co story.
Annette: Like we mentioned before, it's a centenary since the last one, but it's still a household name.
Amy: Absolutely. And there's so much interest in it. People – really, I get so many emails and so many phone calls with people who are just fascinated by it. And yes, it's great. As someone who loves history, it's great to see that there's so much interest, and people wanting to know more about the past.
Annette: Okay. Now, this is just for my interest, but I know over COVID with everybody locked down, Greg's enquiry list just went bananas, because people had time on their hands.
Greg: Too much time on their hands.
Annette: Was it the same for you? Did those quiet COVID years just drive you to the extremes with enquiries?
Amy: I wasn't here during that time as a curator; I've only been here just less than a year. But I definitely know that a lot of my colleagues had that experience as well. Because people were wanting to dive into their histories, and I think that's still continuing now. So I think the flow-on effect from that is still happening, that people started delving into those family histories and checking their ancestry and doing all the DNA testing and finding out more about themselves and their families. So I think that's still flowing on now, and that's a huge part of the enquiries that I get, is people wanting to research their family histories.
Annette: I guess that's another thing we can thank COVID for, is people are actually interested in finding about where they came from.
Amy: Absolutely.
Annette: So yes, there's a few good things that did come out of a pandemic.
How will the Cobb & Co story endure?
Greg: Amy, it's been an absolute joy being here with you today and talking about the shared experiences of transport in Queensland. Cobb & Co is such a wonderful regional museum and such a wonderful asset for Toowoomba and southwest Queensland. Going into the future – because centenaries are always a big milestone – so heading on beyond that centenary, what would you like to see happening here at Cobb & Co? What are you working on at the moment to bring even more life to that incredible story?
Amy: At the moment, as I mentioned, we're in the process of refurbishing one of the exhibitions, which is really exciting. It's nice to be able to delve into some of those stories about individual people, and find out more of the story, not just of the coaches and the vehicles themselves, but the people who used them. So that's definitely something that we're excited to continue as we go through. This whole region, it's got so many incredible stories about migrants; it's got incredible stories of – women's stories. There's so many things,;First Nations stories we're in the process of developing as well.
So there's so many rich stories in this area. It's definitely something we'd like to tackle a bit more. And hopefully in the next few years – all these things take time – but in the next few years, hopefully we'll continue to be able to refurbish some of these galleries and tell some of these individual stories about the people in this region, because there's some incredible stories to tell.
Greg: One thing, Amy, too, again, the history – historian, you're an anthropologist, archaeologist – but a remarkable thing I find is, the steam era, as you know from your days at Ipswich there, it officially ended in '69. And yet, here in Toowoomba, we've had the inaugural run of a 110-year-old steam locomotive from the QR collection within the past couple of weeks, and the amount of interest in there, and another ex-Queensland Railway steam locomotive being restored locally by a group there, it's remarkable, I think, to think that when I was born, the steam era was coming to an end. Yet my career now is still very much involved in those sorts of things. Do you feel that same sense of thing for the story of Cobb & Co? Do you think that story will endure?
Amy: Yes, absolutely. I think there is a real romanticism to the Cobb & Co story that people still hold, I think. Those journeys by stagecoaches, the bugle announcing the arrival; and I think there are more stories to tell, definitely. But people's interest doesn't seem to be waning. We get so many people coming in every day, coming in to visit and tour the collection. And the amount of questions and the level of interest from children as well, it's getting to a point now where this is very foreign for kids to see horse-drawn vehicles and this type of transportation. So they find it fascinating as well. So I definitely think there's lots of stories to tell.
Annette: Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Amy.
Greg: Thank you, Amy.
Amy: Thank you for having me.
Annette: If anyone listening would like to come along to the Cobb & Co Museum, is there anything particular they need to do? Do they need to pre-purchase a ticket, or how do they come in?
Amy: You can absolutely pre-purchase a ticket. If you're living in the Toowoomba region, it is free entry for Toowoomba locals, so that's a great thing to keep in mind. The café is also great, as Greg mentioned earlier, which is awesome. But if you're coming in, you can buy a ticket at the door, you can pre-purchase one. And again, as I said, if you're a Toowoomba local, you can just come on through. And there's some great exhibits; there's some great interactive activities for kids as well. So it's really – it is really a great spot for the whole family and for all ages.
Annette: Fantastic. And one more question. We know the centenary is in August. Are you guys holding anything special here?
Amy: Yes, absolutely. We have a range of activities that are going to be happening over a few days. August 14th is the anniversary day, that's a Wednesday. It also happens to be the Ekka Show holiday for anyone in Brisbane, so if you want to take a drive out of town on the Ekka Show holiday, feel free to come up to Cobb & Co and visit us for the day.
Greg: As they used to do 160 years ago, go by stagecoach.
Amy: Yes. So it'll be running from the 14th, which is the Wednesday, to the Saturday. We'll have lots of historic trades coming in and doing blacksmithing and different techniques like wheelwrighting, things like that. We'll have lots of artisans in the Museum doing different activities as well. There'll be bush poetry;there's going to be a whole range of activities, so it should be a really fun few days. And if you're after any more information, you can find us on social media: X or Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. And if you go to the Queensland Museum website and click on Cobb & Co, you'll find all the information there as well.
Conclusion
Annette: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode on Cobb & Co. And special thanks to our guest today, Amy, for joining us. If you have any questions about our rail history, please email Greg. He would love to hear from you: history@qr.com.au. And if you're enjoying what you're hearing, please leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you what you love about the podcast and what you would like us to feature in a future episode. You've been listening to the Queensland Rail History podcast, hosted by our historian, Greg Hallam, and myself, Annette, with a new episode every month.